Episode 11

Living Water: Reflecting on Easter's True Meaning

Published on: 20th April, 2025

The essence of Easter transcends mere tradition; it compels us to contemplate the profound simplicity inherent in the teachings of Christ and the tenets of Taoism. In this unplanned Easter special, I, Joshua Noel, engage in a reflective meditation on the significance of being "living water" in our daily lives, emphasizing that our existence should be characterized by love, compassion, and a commitment to uplift those around us. We delve into the juxtaposition of Christ's resurrection and the Taoist philosophy of harmony, urging ourselves to embrace a life devoid of competition and filled with benevolence. The episode seeks to foster a deeper understanding of what it means to embody the essence of Christ, particularly in a world riddled with division and complexity. As we navigate these profound themes, I invite you to join me in exploring how simplicity can illuminate our spiritual journey this Easter season.

Takeaways:

  • The essence of Easter transcends mere celebration; it invites us to embody the principles of Christ in our daily lives through love and compassion.
  • In reflecting on the significance of Christ's resurrection, we are reminded that our lives should mirror the message of hope and renewal he represents.
  • By embracing simplicity in our understanding of faith, we can better appreciate the profound truths that Easter conveys about life, death, and divine love.
  • The teachings of Jesus and the Tao emphasize a harmonious existence where we are encouraged to uplift others rather than compete against them.

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Listen to the Good Friday recording with Josh Patterson on the Whole Church patron page:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/god-died-so-what-126677960?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link

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Check out the Whole Church Aesthetics series:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/c9517303-059c-4ed9-a5b1-5fde436971b6

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Songs sampled in this episode:

  • "Has It Been You", by John Mark McMillan
  • "Ordinary Love", by John Mark McMillan
Transcript
Speaker A:

Hey, guys, what is Easter all about?

Speaker A:

Well, I don't really know because I'm just a dummy, but I'm here today to talk about Easter.

Speaker A:

Anyway, guys, this is unplanned.

Speaker A:

You know, I was supposed to release an episode Tuesday, but it's Holy Week and I'm in school and I.

Speaker A:

I work in a restaurant and it's spring break around places and I have, like, a million excuses, but it just.

Speaker A:

It didn't get done.

Speaker A:

I do have stuff written out to talk about correlation and causation, the next logical fallacy we're going to be covering, but for now, I'm just going to kind of, like, ponder Easter and say some other random stuff.

Speaker A:

Yeah, that's all.

Speaker A:

For those who don't know, this show is about questions, not answers.

Speaker A:

So if you're looking for answers, maybe check out a different show.

Speaker A:

But if you're looking for questions that people smarter than me, like theologians and philosophers, have been asking for, like, thousands of years now, I'm all about the questions, and we're going to be asking some today and just kind of meditating on, like, what is Easter?

Speaker A:

Also, I'm not even sure what the show is anymore.

Speaker A:

I'm kind of questioning that.

Speaker A:

I've actually contemplated renaming the show, rebranding it, because I feel like I've been told the dummy thing is something maybe I should.

Speaker A:

I should ditch.

Speaker A:

But I kind of like the dummy thing still, because I want to remind myself humility is important and all that good stuff, but also don't want to belittle myself or belittle others who are like, hey, I've been asking the same thing.

Speaker A:

Am I a dummy?

Speaker A:

I don't want to do that.

Speaker A:

And also kind of want to cover other stuff other than just philosophy and just kind of talk about the theology, philosophy, talk about, like, politics or the stuff I'm learning, or law, or just kind of sometimes maybe just do meditational practices rather than just asking questions.

Speaker A:

I still want to do stuff like our normal stuff where I'm asking questions and thinking about theology, but I'm thinking I might want to do other stuff.

Speaker A:

And instead of creating a new podcast and just keep creating new podcasts or new things, kind of just making this, like, the One Stop Josh shop.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

But if I do, I'd probably end up calling it Be Living Water.

Speaker A:

So it's kind of a play on my Christian Taoist stuff.

Speaker A:

So you may recall that Jesus, you know, that guy, the thing that the whole Christian face about God, he said that he is living Water, you know, he's talking to the girl at the well and he said, you should will no longer need to go to the well again.

Speaker A:

You'll never be thirsty again if you drink from me.

Speaker A:

I am the living water.

Speaker A:

Whatever.

Speaker A:

Something like that.

Speaker A:

Also playing off of in Taoism, and it's something actually, weirdly enough, Bruce Lee really harped on from Daoism is this line that Lun Tzu says that says, be like water.

Speaker A:

We are benefiting all and in competition with none.

Speaker A:

And I really feel like they just play so well with like, stuff that Jesus taught us, right, where he said, turn the other cheek.

Speaker A:

We're not in competition with anybody.

Speaker A:

Show love.

Speaker A:

You don't tear people down.

Speaker A:

You build people up.

Speaker A:

You find the downtrodden and you stand with them.

Speaker A:

That's what the cross is all about, is saying, I will stand here with those who are persecuted, with those who are suffering.

Speaker A:

God himself said that that was a worthwhile thing to do.

Speaker A:

So, yeah, I think be living water is important because, you know, the Bible tells us that we need to be Christ now.

Speaker A:

The church is the body of Christ today.

Speaker A:

He was living water.

Speaker A:

We are called to be living water.

Speaker A:

I think what that means in part is not being in competition with anybody, not trying to be power hungry.

Speaker A:

Like that goes to the politics stuff, right?

Speaker A:

Like, not trying to be like, oh, we need to be in power, we need our laws in place, but rather saying, no, what benefits everybody.

Speaker A:

We're not in competition with anyone.

Speaker A:

We want to benefit all.

Speaker A:

We are called to be salt and light in the world.

Speaker A:

So how do we benefit those who maybe don't believe like us?

Speaker A:

What is it that, what does it mean to be like water, to be like living water?

Speaker A:

Especially where not only are we benefiting all, but we're giving them the good news of the gospel.

Speaker A:

We're adding something spiritual to other people's lives where we're not taking away or being constructive, but rather being constructive and helping others.

Speaker A:

So those are kind of things I'm thinking of, what does that mean?

Speaker A:

What does that look like?

Speaker A:

And I think that applies in our politics where we say, hey, rather than coming up with, how can people be like us and we reinforce our rules, we think of like, what can we do from a politics standpoint that benefits the most?

Speaker A:

People whether they believe like me or not, whether I agree with their lifestyle or not, you know, whatever.

Speaker A:

And you know, that goes outside of politics.

Speaker A:

It goes into how we live our daily lives.

Speaker A:

It goes to, how do we even read the Bible?

Speaker A:

Like, when we think about Passing the Bible, Are we thinking about ourselves?

Speaker A:

And like, what does this mean to me?

Speaker A:

Are we thinking of like, what does this tell me of how I should treat others and how I can benefit those around me?

Speaker A:

So those are the kind of questions I'm really thinking about more these days.

Speaker A:

So if we change the show, it might become be Living Water and stuff like that.

Speaker A:

I'm working on if I do that, what the logo should look like.

Speaker A:

So if you guys have ideas, let me know.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

But since this is Easter, this is actually my pastor's favorite holiday.

Speaker A:

I think it's a lot of people's favorite holiday.

Speaker A:

Mine will always be Thanksgiving because I can be thankful for all the things including Jesus on the cross, his resurrection, his birth.

Speaker A:

I get Easter, Christmas, everything all in one at Thanksgiving.

Speaker A:

And I'm good also because I don't like this like obligation to give gifts and do stuff, which most of the times at Christmas, but also I get some of that in Easter and I'm like, I don't need it.

Speaker A:

That said, I hate fall.

Speaker A:

So Thanksgiving and fall, that's like the only downfall.

Speaker A:

Maybe we should make 4th of July my favorite holiday.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

But recently I'm hearing a lot about what Jesus on the cross meant, what it should tell us now, how we should live our lives, that kind of stuff from various sides.

Speaker A:

You know, people who are more closer to my camp are seeing the stuff of like, hey, Rome was just like our government is now where they are fascist and they were trying to control people and take people's freedom away.

Speaker A:

And what Jesus did on the cross was say, I stand with those who are being persecuted, with people whose rights are being taken away.

Speaker A:

And that's what we are called to do today, to be like Jesus.

Speaker A:

I agree with that.

Speaker A:

I just don't want it to be limited to this moment that we're in.

Speaker A:

You know, I want it to be more than that still, like, and I think it is also, you know, dummy for theology.

Speaker A:

We're thinking about all the different beliefs people have out there.

Speaker A:

And one of the things that's really sitting with me right now, and I'm going to go to the daoist thing that I like to go to a lot where Lao Tzu says, do not respect the clever.

Speaker A:

He talks about how we think too much, we confuse ourselves and we lose that life giving thing, the dao, the harmony within us.

Speaker A:

The church I grew up in, it didn't have as sophisticated theology as a lot of the other churches I've been Experiencing as I've done podcasts and as I started going to, you know, seminary and different things like that, I would hear preachers get up and talk about how, well, salvation's like, you know, we all sinned and we deserved death and hell.

Speaker A:

And God said, hey, you know what?

Speaker A:

You're in debt, but let me take all the debt and I'll pay it for you.

Speaker A:

Which is atonement theology, ransom atonement theory, or penal substitutionary atonement theory.

Speaker A:

Different stuff.

Speaker A:

Like that is what it really is.

Speaker A:

But they didn't have those terms for it, I don't think, because a lot of people in the church I grew up in didn't go to college to become a pastor, anything.

Speaker A:

They studied the Bible, they read other people's books, and they're like, this sounds good.

Speaker A:

And the thing is, like, a lot of people might.

Speaker A:

We think of the implications of that, and we see that there are problems.

Speaker A:

And I agree, there are problems.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

What you're saying then is that God couldn't just forgive you.

Speaker A:

He was so angry at sin, he had to punish it.

Speaker A:

Like, that's not.

Speaker A:

It just doesn't feel loving, right?

Speaker A:

That just feels angry.

Speaker A:

Punish it.

Speaker A:

And, like, because they don't have that framework, they're like, well, that just has to be love in some way.

Speaker A:

And they don't think through.

Speaker A:

Whereas people in my camp are like, no, that's dangerous.

Speaker A:

I'm going to come around a little bit more on this.

Speaker A:

Just give me a second.

Speaker A:

But the people that I heard that from, they were.

Speaker A:

Well, meaning.

Speaker A:

What they were thinking is that God loved us so much.

Speaker A:

He gave his life for us.

Speaker A:

And that part is true.

Speaker A:

They didn't understand the little details of how.

Speaker A:

They've read different books here and there that said stuff, and they kind of regurgitated some stuff that sounded like these other atonement theories.

Speaker A:

But at the same time, they would sing songs about having victory over hell in the grave, or they would sing songs of how he was our scapegoat.

Speaker A:

And they would preach about that stuff, too, because they didn't have anyone atonement theory because they hadn't heard of that.

Speaker A:

So they didn't study all these different little nuances.

Speaker A:

And what are the implications of what you mean when you say Jesus saved us?

Speaker A:

They just knew Jesus saved us.

Speaker A:

All these things seem to be in the Bible.

Speaker A:

So, hey, that's cool.

Speaker A:

Let's talk about it and think about how much God loved us.

Speaker A:

And all of it was beneficial to most of the people in the congregation that I experienced and that I know, but those of us who do think about the implications, we think of not really those kind of churches.

Speaker A:

We think of more conservative churches that have thought this stuff through and still will say, okay, this is our atonement theory.

Speaker A:

We're going to stick to it.

Speaker A:

It's going to be penal substitution, right?

Speaker A:

And we're going to say God is so angry at sin, hates us all, that until us wretched sinners die in Christ, we can't really live.

Speaker A:

So Christ had to come and he loved us so much that he paid the price.

Speaker A:

And it's like, that's a very loving Jesus, not a very loving God.

Speaker A:

And it creates a culture in a lot of these churches where people are constantly feeling bad, just constantly feeling guilty and ashamed of themselves.

Speaker A:

And I felt that too.

Speaker A:

I'm going to get to that.

Speaker A:

But those that are intentionally doing that atonement theory, that's where I'm like, that's pretty problematic.

Speaker A:

And I actually don't love that.

Speaker A:

And the reason they usually do it is because they thought through the other atonement theories and they said, well, that's too freeing, that's too whatever.

Speaker A:

And people will be able to think that they can just sin and whatever.

Speaker A:

And that means that God's not really righteous or just.

Speaker A:

And those are the implications that they're thinking through, which is why they hold a penal substitutionary atonement theory, even though they probably know that it's causing guilt and all this stuff to people, but it allows them to still say that God is righteous and just and doesn't just allow sin.

Speaker A:

Whereas people who are closer to me, just to be completely transparent, I'm more the Christus victor atonement model, which is to say that I don't think that God was going to punish us no matter what, and Jesus had to come to pay the price.

Speaker A:

I rather think that because of our own actions, we merited death, hell, the grave for ourselves.

Speaker A:

We merited it for ourselves.

Speaker A:

We had the power and we chose to do that.

Speaker A:

And what God chose to do was defeat hell in the grave so that none of us have to go.

Speaker A:

So what the penal substitutionary people say is that God was so mad, we're all sinners unless we believe that Christ on the cross, and that's the moment he paid the price of punishment for our sins and we all should feel indebted.

Speaker A:

Whereas what I'm saying is we all earned our own death, but God loved us so much anyway that he just defeated death so that we don't have to worry about it.

Speaker A:

And it was the moment of resurrection, when Jesus truly beat death.

Speaker A:

That's when we get salvation.

Speaker A:

So these are some of these different atonement models that people are thinking through.

Speaker A:

The church that I came from, though, it didn't think of any of these implications.

Speaker A:

It would say stuff like, Christ defeated death, hell in the grave, and they would get excited about that, and it would talk about how Christ came and paid the price for what we did, and they would get excited about that.

Speaker A:

And I think there's just something really genuine, really nice and just good about that.

Speaker A:

And I'm not trying to down theology clearly.

Speaker A:

I think there's implications in all this.

Speaker A:

I myself grew up in that church where they didn't really think those implications, but I did.

Speaker A:

And I heard I'm a wretched sinner, and it's my fault that Jesus went through all this and watched Passion of the Christ and all that stuff and said, I am garbage.

Speaker A:

And I felt really bad about myself.

Speaker A:

But a lot of people go to that church don't think through the implications.

Speaker A:

They're like, wow, Christ is so nice.

Speaker A:

He loves us so much.

Speaker A:

Or, oh, he defeated hell in the grave, too.

Speaker A:

That's so cool.

Speaker A:

Or the, you know, and they just get the excitement, the good stuff, because they didn't overthink it.

Speaker A:

And I think maybe that's part of what we need to do this Easter season, is not come up with really solid doctrines.

Speaker A:

I still think there's a place for that.

Speaker A:

Let's do that some other time.

Speaker A:

But I think maybe this weekend we're thinking about, you know, Good Friday has already passed for me.

Speaker A:

I'm recording Saturday, this probably going to release Easter Sunday, thinking about Good Friday rather than what does it mean that Christ was on the cross?

Speaker A:

You know, I will say, and I said this in a patron segment that's free for the whole church podcast, if you guys want to check it out.

Speaker A:

I think Christ had to die because God is in relationship with all of us, and he can't be in full relationship with us unless he fully has experienced what we experience, which means God, Christ is fully in life and also fully in death.

Speaker A:

And he can't say that unless God has died, too.

Speaker A:

He had to have that experience of death to be in relationship with us.

Speaker A:

So I still think that moment's really important, but it's not the saving moment.

Speaker A:

Holy Saturday, you know, Christ went into hell, I think, because he had to defeat hell.

Speaker A:

Some people will say it's because he had to pay the price, you know, and then Easter Sunday we're thinking about resurrection when I think Christ defeated everything and that's when we're saved.

Speaker A:

Or others will say, that's when we have our proof that what Christ did really worked because he came back.

Speaker A:

I think rather than getting wrapped up in the atonement models, that we should think about another day, maybe this weekend.

Speaker A:

We just think like, Christ did die for us.

Speaker A:

Sit there for a minute.

Speaker A:

You don't need to think it through.

Speaker A:

You don't need solid doctrine.

Speaker A:

Don't confuse yourself.

Speaker A:

Be in harmony with God, with love, with what Christ did.

Speaker A:

He died for us.

Speaker A:

Holy Saturday.

Speaker A:

Christ went to hell.

Speaker A:

The hearkening to hell happened.

Speaker A:

You don't need to think about like, was it because he's paying our punishment or because he had a defeat?

Speaker A:

Cool.

Speaker A:

We'll think about that another time.

Speaker A:

Right now, let's think Christ was in hell.

Speaker A:

God went to hell is in that Easter Sunday.

Speaker A:

Here we are today when I plan to release this.

Speaker A:

Christ came back again.

Speaker A:

God is still with us.

Speaker A:

Christ is risen.

Speaker A:

He's risen indeed.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

You don't need to think about like, is that the moment of salvation?

Speaker A:

Or is that the proof of salvation?

Speaker A:

Or just sit in it.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

Christ is risen after the resurrection.

Speaker A:

There's a big church argument of would God send the Holy Spirit down?

Speaker A:

Or did God and Jesus send the Holy Spirit to us out?

Speaker A:

There's some really important implications to that.

Speaker A:

There's a reason the first church split was around the filioche clause.

Speaker A:

But don't think about that right now.

Speaker A:

Instead, think, Christ is risen.

Speaker A:

He went to heaven.

Speaker A:

The Holy Spirit is now with us.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

Sit in that.

Speaker A:

Don't confuse yourself.

Speaker A:

Right now.

Speaker A:

I'm a dummy.

Speaker A:

It's easy for me to confuse myself and overthink things that I that are above my pay grade.

Speaker A:

But this season, I think it's important this weekend that we just sit in things, meditate.

Speaker A:

Christ died.

Speaker A:

God died.

Speaker A:

God is fully in life.

Speaker A:

Christ is fully in life.

Speaker A:

God is fully in death.

Speaker A:

Christ is fully in death.

Speaker A:

Sit in that.

Speaker A:

God went to hell.

Speaker A:

Christ went to hell.

Speaker A:

Sit in that.

Speaker A:

Christ is risen.

Speaker A:

God is with us now.

Speaker A:

Sit in that.

Speaker A:

Sometimes simplicity is the most important thing.

Speaker A:

Even though I still think these other atonement things are important.

Speaker A:

And I'm going to show you some verses that, to me, as someone who does believe in Christ, is victory.

Speaker A:

These are the verses that get me excited this season.

Speaker A:

I think in that land I love asking questions.

Speaker A:

I don't want us to get confused though.

Speaker A:

Let's not overthink this this season.

Speaker A:

Let's just sit in it, let's meditate.

Speaker A:

This isn't probably going to be a full episode like normal, because I don't have an outline or anything.

Speaker A:

This is just me talking about Easter and my feelings right now.

Speaker A:

As someone right now who I believe in God fully.

Speaker A:

I'll just say I believe in God.

Speaker A:

I believe God, that Jesus is God, that he truly rose.

Speaker A:

But sometimes it's hard for me to believe that.

Speaker A:

And then, like I talked with Josh Patterson on that Patron segment.

Speaker A:

I'm going to link that down below.

Speaker A:

Josh brought up radical theology, which says that maybe this stuff isn't as literal, but God is in every moment that we decide that he is.

Speaker A:

Basically.

Speaker A:

So we deny the resurrection when we don't love our neighbor, and we accept the resurrection when we do.

Speaker A:

And maybe it's more about these principles and ideas, and sometimes that's easier to hold on to.

Speaker A:

Right now, I'm like, yeah, I'm fully on board the God thing.

Speaker A:

It's Easter season.

Speaker A:

I'm like, yeah, God's so real.

Speaker A:

He's so cool.

Speaker A:

Sometimes it's hard for me to believe it, and I hold on to that instead.

Speaker A:

You guys know last year, my dog was shot.

Speaker A:

There was a shoot at my house.

Speaker A:

A bullet grazed my wife's arm, man.

Speaker A:

In that moment, it was hard to believe that God was there.

Speaker A:

But God, Christ is fully in life, he's fully in death.

Speaker A:

I believe that I might not know what that means in every given moment of if I think that's like, literally, God was there, or if it's just a story that makes me feel good, I don't need to know every time.

Speaker A:

Sometimes I just need to let it be.

Speaker A:

I did a lot of overthinking in that season.

Speaker A:

I got confused, I got angry at God, I got angry at myself for not being home.

Speaker A:

I'm still wrestling with some of that and what I'm learning through Taoism, sometimes to just let it be.

Speaker A:

I don't need to overthink things and confuse myself.

Speaker A:

I don't need the best, strongest theology.

Speaker A:

I just need to know sometimes that God is with us, Christ is risen.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

And sometimes that's hard to accept.

Speaker A:

It is.

Speaker A:

And sometimes it's hard when parts of the church are saying stuff that we think is sin.

Speaker A:

You know, for the conservative people, they're probably looking at people, churches like mine on Easter going, oh, they're talking about how pride people or LGBTQ are also saved, and they're in Christ.

Speaker A:

And they're really just telling sinners that they can sin, and that's going to send a bunch of people to hell.

Speaker A:

Like, I know a lot of people really do feel that way.

Speaker A:

I'm not trying to mock them.

Speaker A:

And I actually do understand the perspective, and I don't want to belittle it.

Speaker A:

What they're thinking is we're telling people that something's okay, that according to their beliefs, if people participate in it, they're going to go to hell.

Speaker A:

So what they're thinking is that we're enabling people, sending them to hell.

Speaker A:

Basically, yeah.

Speaker A:

It's hard to look at churches like mine, if you believe that way, and go, why are they celebrating Easter?

Speaker A:

Why are they talking about Jesus at all?

Speaker A:

How dare they?

Speaker A:

I understand the sentiment.

Speaker A:

I actually do.

Speaker A:

I grew up like that.

Speaker A:

People on my side are looking at a lot of the churches that feel that way about us, who.

Speaker A:

A lot of them are the same people who are supporting Donald Trump, who's causing people to go to prisons in other countries that they are wrongfully placed in, who are literally sending people out of the country who did nothing wrong, who's taking people's rights away, who are transgenders, health things away.

Speaker A:

DEI programs are being shut down that actually just help farmers in some places.

Speaker A:

And we're looking at churches who enabled a lot of this, who think all this stuff is good.

Speaker A:

Like, they're literally calling it good, and they're celebrating Easter, and we're like, even Christian.

Speaker A:

Do you even understand, Like, Jesus on the cross?

Speaker A:

Was it to be with the persecuted?

Speaker A:

Like, how dare you talk about Easter?

Speaker A:

There's a real division in the church that actually make a lot of sense to me.

Speaker A:

I do a whole church Unity podcast, and it's become harder and harder each year to keep talking about it.

Speaker A:

But I do think that one of the fundamental truths of Christianity is that we are now one in Christ.

Speaker A:

What I believe about Daoism is that God is the Tao, and Jesus, in that one moment on the cross, brought the whole universe together in perfect harmony.

Speaker A:

And the more we look to that and live into this weekend of Easter, Jesus died.

Speaker A:

He went to hell.

Speaker A:

He rose.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

God is in life.

Speaker A:

God is in death.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

That's where you find harmony.

Speaker A:

That is the dao to me.

Speaker A:

So this whole weekend is what it's all about.

Speaker A:

And that's where it's hard to not overthink things, to look at these churches who are supporting stuff that I think is detestable, and knowing that they're looking at me thinking that what I believe is detestable and trying to say God is with us.

Speaker A:

There's a Bible verse, I think.

Speaker A:

I'm not exactly sure where.

Speaker A:

Maybe it's one of the creeds, but it says the same spirit that is in you is in me.

Speaker A:

Saying that to people because they do believe in Jesus, they committed their life to God, and they're doing stuff that I think is detestable.

Speaker A:

And to sit there and think the same spirit that lives in me is what lives in them.

Speaker A:

And if you're like me, you believe that God or the Dao is in all things, and it's the thing that connects us all.

Speaker A:

It's even more true to say the same spirit in me is in you.

Speaker A:

And yet they're doing things I find detestable, and yet they think I'm sending people to hell.

Speaker A:

That's hard to sit in.

Speaker A:

And the thing is, God's smart enough that he.

Speaker A:

Whether you believe in the future or not, whether you believe in predestination or all power, you know, whatever.

Speaker A:

We've done a lot of stuff about that on the network recently.

Speaker A:

I think it's safe to say God smart enough to know that stuff like this would happen, and he still chose to go to hell for all of us.

Speaker A:

I'm not going to give you a clear answer on it.

Speaker A:

Obviously, I think my side right, but I'm not going to make that argument of like, why think I'm right and they're wrong.

Speaker A:

So I'm going to say I'm not trying to do both sides is them, but either side could be right.

Speaker A:

And God still died for the other side.

Speaker A:

He still went to hell for us.

Speaker A:

He still rose again and is with all of us now.

Speaker A:

And the Spirit in me is the Spirit in you.

Speaker A:

God, that.

Speaker A:

That's.

Speaker A:

That's hard.

Speaker A:

But I wanted to sit in some other stuff this Easter first.

Speaker A:

Thinking of just like iconography, I'm going to link a series we did on the whole Church podcast of the Church in art is.

Speaker A:

I think Easter season's a good time to look at some of the art of the church.

Speaker A:

Think about the.

Speaker A:

Think about it if you want the theological implications thereof.

Speaker A:

Like is, you know, in iconography, each little thing in the piece of art actually represents something.

Speaker A:

It means something.

Speaker A:

It's not just to look pretty, you know, the halos around their heads, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker A:

It means something to look into some of that, study it, but also just to see these pictures and meditate on it.

Speaker A:

I think art is an important part of this weekend when I'm saying what we need to do instead of get really theological and argue with people what the cross meant, what the going to hell means, or what the resurrection means, to just meditate on the fact that it happened.

Speaker A:

That's hard to do because we get stuck in our head so much and we confuse ourselves.

Speaker A:

I think the easiest way to get out of that is to look at art, look at some of the iconography.

Speaker A:

So I like this particular piece of the Resurrection in Greek Orthodox iconography.

Speaker A:

There's also one of the harrowing to Hell, where Jesus is touching Adam and Eve in hell to kind of bring them back up.

Speaker A:

And these images are beautiful.

Speaker A:

I think people should look at those, meditate on this, play some songs later.

Speaker A:

And because of that, I'm going to cross post this to some joyful noises.

Speaker A:

This is still an episode of the Dummy for Theology, but cross post it to some joyful noises because there's also music really helps.

Speaker A:

I'm going to play some of the song two songs that I think really are helping me this season thinking about what that actually means.

Speaker A:

So I mentioned I'm going to talk about some Bible verses.

Speaker A:

All Christians, for the most part, whether you believe in anansi or not, whether you believe in whatever, atonement theory or what, you know, whatever we believe there is some truth in these Bible verses, which on a pause, that's why I think a lot of people should go check out the Portersgate Collective, because the way they're doing their music is they're using Bible verses.

Speaker A:

So whereas I might read a verse to mean one thing and you might read it to mean another thing, this song can still be applicable to both of us.

Speaker A:

And I think that's just a beautiful thing they're doing over there.

Speaker A:

So check out the Portersgate Collective.

Speaker A:

But anyway, we all do affirm the Scripture.

Speaker A:

Whether or not we think it's a narrative, it's a different story probably.

Speaker A:

But I'm going to read a few scriptures that mean a lot to me in this season, starting with Romans 5, verses 18 through 21.

Speaker A:

So then as through one offense, the result was condemnation to all mankind.

Speaker A:

So also through one act of righteousness, the result was justification of life to all mankind.

Speaker A:

For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one Jesus Christ, the many will be made righteous.

Speaker A:

The law came in so that the offense would increase.

Speaker A:

But where sin increased, grace abounded, all the more so that as sin reigned in death.

Speaker A:

So also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Speaker A:

Hallelujah.

Speaker A:

Sorry, I'm getting a little Pentecostal.

Speaker A:

I grew up Pentecostal and Lutheran now.

Speaker A:

And it gives you a weird mix of things sometimes of what I get excited about, how I get excited, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker A:

But earlier in this chapter, you know, the Bible wasn't really written in chapters, but it's fine.

Speaker A:

Whatever.

Speaker A:

Paul's talking about how there is a difference between what happened with Adam and what happened with Jesus, right?

Speaker A:

Like Adam's sin, everyone's affected by that.

Speaker A:

So Jesus sacrifice.

Speaker A:

And this is where, like, a lot of people read this and what they'll say is, oh, well, this shows that Jesus didn't say, you know, this says this.

Speaker A:

But it's, you know, it's a figure of speech.

Speaker A:

Jesus didn't literally save everyone.

Speaker A:

Some people still are going to go to hell if they don't choose to believe in Jesus.

Speaker A:

You know, I believe that Jesus saved everyone.

Speaker A:

We're all going to end up with God in the end.

Speaker A:

I don't know what that looks like.

Speaker A:

I think there's going to be a long process for some of us, like Adolf Hitler, for example, or Donald Trump, probably be a longer process.

Speaker A:

But I still think I'm going to see them in heaven one day.

Speaker A:

I'm a crazy person is what it is.

Speaker A:

But he's talking about it, and when he says the differences, and this is why I think it's important we read the Bible in context of the Bible, he says, yeah, there's totally a difference in what happened with Adam and what happened with Jesus.

Speaker A:

They're not exactly the same.

Speaker A:

Paul says that, but then he says, here's why they're not the same.

Speaker A:

Adam was just man.

Speaker A:

Jesus was God.

Speaker A:

So whereas Adam brought sin to all of us, how much more did what Jesus did save us all?

Speaker A:

How much more impactful will be what God did?

Speaker A:

So I think it's a strong argument that you can't look at this and go, well, clearly what he meant was like, Adam, everybody's a sinner now.

Speaker A:

But Jesus only was partially effective.

Speaker A:

Now, dude, I can't get that out of this.

Speaker A:

I know other people disagree with me, but that's why this verse is so impactful to me.

Speaker A:

And I'm like, yeah, that's it, guys.

Speaker A:

In a.

Speaker A:

No, I don't want to, like, proofread.

Speaker A:

I like, there's multiple different ways of interpreting the scripture that don't just point to what I believe.

Speaker A:

I don't want to use one verse and be like this proves my belief.

Speaker A:

Because there's a lot of verses that make what I say seem not true.

Speaker A:

But if I'm just talking about the verses that get me excited on Easter, this has got to be up there.

Speaker A:

Because I do believe what Jesus did was impactful for all of us, even more so than what Adam did.

Speaker A:

Also, I don't believe Adam's literal.

Speaker A:

We can get in that some other time.

Speaker A:

Let me change the perspective here so you guys can kind of see this a little bit better.

Speaker A:

If I do it this way, I think.

Speaker A:

Yeah, sure.

Speaker A:

Why not?

Speaker A:

First Corinthians 15.

Speaker A:

I think this is like, five through 15.

Speaker A:

I didn't write the verses down for some reason.

Speaker A:

Then this wasn't really planned.

Speaker A:

So excuse me.

Speaker A:

Behold, I tell you a mystery.

Speaker A:

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Speaker A:

At the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Speaker A:

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Speaker A:

When the perishable puts on the imperishable and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the scene that is written.

Speaker A:

Death is swallowed up in victory.

Speaker A:

O death, where is your victory?

Speaker A:

O death, where is your sting?

Speaker A:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Speaker A:

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ, defeating hell, the grave, and death itself, we have victory through Jesus.

Speaker A:

Okay, I'm gonna read one more section of verse here and give you a couple songs and peace out, because I have stuff to do on this Holy Saturday.

Speaker A:

Mark 16, verses 9 through 18.

Speaker A:

So it's a little bit longer of a section, but I think it's important because this is from the Easter account.

Speaker A:

I'm gonna pause a couple times and make commentary as I go.

Speaker A:

But now, when he rose early on the first day of the week, which is why we changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, because first day of the week is Sunday.

Speaker A:

That's when Jesus rose.

Speaker A:

It's actually all about Easter and not about the Sabbath for the church anyway, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons, she went and told those who had been with him, and they mourned and wept.

Speaker A:

But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.

Speaker A:

So that's the first apostle, the first person, the apostle to the apostles, as they say is Mary Magdalene.

Speaker A:

The first person that Jesus said should preach the gospel was a woman wondering about whether or not women should be preachers.

Speaker A:

There you go.

Speaker A:

After these things, he appeared in another form to two of them as they were walking into the country, and they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.

Speaker A:

People are seeing them, but they will not believe.

Speaker A:

They just keep not believing that he truly rose from the dead.

Speaker A:

Afterward, he appeared to the 11 themselves as they were reclining at the table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him.

Speaker A:

And after he had risen, and he said to them, go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Speaker A:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

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But whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Speaker A:

And these signs will accompany those who believe in my name.

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They will cast out demons.

Speaker A:

They will speak in new tongues.

Speaker A:

They will pick up serpents with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them.

Speaker A:

They will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Speaker A:

Parts of this are not in every Bible.

Speaker A:

I actually think maybe all of this, but at one point it was canonized.

Speaker A:

So I believe it's in there for a reason.

Speaker A:

Personally, I want to point out it does say those who do not believe will be condemned.

Speaker A:

So that's one of those verses people will use, argue against my perspective on all being saved.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

So, you know, I've read a verse that bolstered my position.

Speaker A:

Here's one that some people use against it.

Speaker A:

What I really do love about this, though, is people are seeing Jesus and he's telling them, go tell other people.

Speaker A:

And they're just not.

Speaker A:

They don't want to believe.

Speaker A:

They just don't want to believe.

Speaker A:

And we're still doing that today.

Speaker A:

We've seen Jesus in our lives.

Speaker A:

I felt him in my heart.

Speaker A:

And people don't want to believe, but we still have to tell the message anyway.

Speaker A:

There's good news.

Speaker A:

Christ defeated death, hell in the grave.

Speaker A:

That's awesome news.

Speaker A:

Happy Easter.

Speaker A:

Like, this is great.

Speaker A:

Why don't people want to believe?

Speaker A:

And why is it, when they see him, says, go tell everybody else, if he knows that someone are going to choose not to believe, and it comes down to what you're going to again, you're going to see in Acts, and you see there, it talks about the signs and wonders that accompany the apostles.

Speaker A:

We are called to be Jesus now.

Speaker A:

We are now the ones on the cross standing with the persecuted.

Speaker A:

We are now the ones going through hell with people in the workplaces.

Speaker A:

We are now the ones preaching life, preaching Easter to everyone.

Speaker A:

People who believe, like me, that all will be saved.

Speaker A:

You know, some people say, okay, so you just think people live whatever.

Speaker A:

It doesn't really matter.

Speaker A:

I'm like, no, it's like, there's the verse that Paul talks about.

Speaker A:

It's like, so we can just sin now, right?

Speaker A:

And it's like, no, no.

Speaker A:

We're actually so committed.

Speaker A:

We are so, like, excited to be alive in Christ that, like, even more so, we are committed to living holy and righteous lives because of the joy we get, the happiness we feel like, the great pleasure we take, and the gift that was given to us through Jesus Christ.

Speaker A:

Whether or not we understand it doesn't matter.

Speaker A:

It is a gift.

Speaker A:

It is given to us.

Speaker A:

God loves us.

Speaker A:

God is with us fully in life, fully in death.

Speaker A:

Christ is fully man.

Speaker A:

What it truly means to be the most human is to be like Christ.

Speaker A:

Christ is fully God.

Speaker A:

What it truly means to fully understand God is to fully understand Christ.

Speaker A:

And as my friend Josh Patterson says, and so can you, Paul also calls us all little gods.

Speaker A:

The word Christian means to be a little Christ.

Speaker A:

The Bible says that the church is to be the body of Christ.

Speaker A:

Today we are supposed to be doing those things that Jesus did.

Speaker A:

And what was that?

Speaker A:

Healing the sick, standing with the persecuted, loving others.

Speaker A:

Easter isn't just a, hey, isn't it cool that Jesus saved us and now I can go to heaven?

Speaker A:

No, it's about being living water.

Speaker A:

Right?

Speaker A:

We are now the body of Christ.

Speaker A:

How do I benefit all?

Speaker A:

What does that mean?

Speaker A:

What does it mean to be life to those around me?

Speaker A:

Christ is life.

Speaker A:

So if I'm to be Christ, I need to be life to those around me.

Speaker A:

I need to be water.

Speaker A:

So celebrating Easter isn't just heck.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Jesus did it.

Speaker A:

We scored the touchdown.

Speaker A:

Spike the ball.

Speaker A:

Celebrate.

Speaker A:

It's cool.

Speaker A:

Now let's go be Christ, too.

Speaker A:

You can, too.

Speaker A:

Christ is fully God.

Speaker A:

And you can, too.

Speaker A:

I like.

Speaker A:

I like the way that Patterson put that.

Speaker A:

I mentioned I was going to play a couple songs and then we're going to wrap this up because again, I think we can get too much in our heads and we need to remember this Easter.

Speaker A:

God died.

Speaker A:

Christ died.

Speaker A:

God went to hell.

Speaker A:

Christ went to hell.

Speaker A:

Christ rose.

Speaker A:

God is risen.

Speaker A:

He's risen indeed.

Speaker A:

And God is with us.

Speaker A:

That's what Easter is all about.

Speaker A:

Don't overthink it.

Speaker A:

Don't get confused like this dummy occasionally does.

Speaker A:

Meditate on those Things and what that truly means.

Speaker A:

So here's a couple.

Speaker A:

Both of these songs are from John Mark McMillan.

Speaker A:

I'm playing two parts of Ordinary Love, but first I'm going to play a song called has it been you realizing that God's been with him all along again?

Speaker A:

Christ is fully in life, fully in death.

Speaker A:

And I love the song.

Speaker A:

This kind of just realization.

Speaker A:

Oh, you've always been with me.

Speaker A:

So again, John Mark McMillan, has it been you again?

Speaker A:

Believe.

Speaker B:

Even when it feels like I don't know who I should be why believe in a kingdom that's coming?

Speaker B:

The resurrection baked into the fabric of the plan like season, tides and even the revolutions of the land and I.

Speaker A:

Believe.

Speaker B:

Even if it's something that I'll.

Speaker A:

Never live to see yeah, it's a beautiful song.

Speaker A:

I recommend everybody take the time to listen to the full thing.

Speaker A:

I believe it was resurrection baked into the fabric of the plan.

Speaker A:

Have you been in every moment of my life this whole time?

Speaker A:

I believe Christ is with us.

Speaker A:

God is with us.

Speaker A:

It's a great Easter song.

Speaker A:

Also, I'm really just glad Easter's in spring, because it is.

Speaker A:

We see the seasons like you talk about the season ties in the song.

Speaker A:

Like, we see the seasons where, like, fall, everything's dying, which is why I don't like, fall kind of bums me out.

Speaker A:

Winter, everything's just barren.

Speaker A:

And then all of a sudden, here we are in spring, things are coming back to life again.

Speaker A:

He is risen.

Speaker A:

He is risen, indeed.

Speaker A:

And what does it mean for us now?

Speaker A:

We don't just spike the football.

Speaker A:

We continue in that.

Speaker A:

And what the Bible says is that God is love.

Speaker A:

So what I want to play now is another John Markmost song, Ordinary Love.

Speaker A:

Because I think celebrating Easter means we continue to be Christ, to be living water, which means we continue to be love to the world around us.

Speaker A:

This song's Ordinary love.

Speaker B:

Galaxy of thought I spend my life lost Inside the contours of your face Inside this ordinary love Ordinary love I'm crawling on the score again.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Just another really pretty song, John McMillan.

Speaker A:

The thing I love about this song, Ordinary Love, is just talking about how, like, just love people and a lot of times, the church again.

Speaker A:

It's those things, one of those things that we tend to overthink, right?

Speaker A:

It's like, oh, what does it mean that God is love?

Speaker A:

Like, is he this kind of love or that kind of love?

Speaker A:

Is he the kind of love that punishes, wants to go to hell?

Speaker A:

Is he?

Speaker A:

It's just love.

Speaker A:

And, like, we're like, oh, well, Christ isn't in your relationship with your wife.

Speaker A:

That's a different kind of love.

Speaker A:

That's romance, love.

Speaker A:

Christ is in all love.

Speaker A:

God is in all love.

Speaker A:

God is love.

Speaker A:

And yeah, that's going to look different at different times, in different places and in different relationships.

Speaker A:

God is the thing that connects all of us, the harmony within us.

Speaker A:

God is love.

Speaker A:

Even the most ordinary love.

Speaker A:

So here's another part of that same song near the end that really brings it home for me.

Speaker A:

And this is what I think it means to celebrate Easter daily in our lives as we be Christ today or.

Speaker B:

Something you feel.

Speaker A:

Or an act.

Speaker B:

Of the wheel.

Speaker B:

If God is love.

Speaker A:

If God is love, he hides in all of us.

Speaker A:

All of us have love.

Speaker A:

We are in relationship with one another.

Speaker A:

We are defined by relationships.

Speaker A:

And my opinion what that means.

Speaker A:

God is love.

Speaker A:

Don't overthink it.

Speaker A:

If you have people you love, spend time with them today.

Speaker A:

That's how you celebrate Easter.

Speaker A:

God is love.

Speaker A:

Embrace the love you have for your fellow man and remember the Spirit that is in you, the same spirit that is in me.

Speaker A:

God is what connects all of us.

Speaker A:

God is what created all of us.

Speaker A:

God is fully in life, fully in death.

Speaker A:

And Christ is risen indeed.

Speaker A:

I don't know what all those things mean all the time, but I know they're important.

Speaker A:

And I know that that's life giving and that I'm called to do the same.

Speaker A:

To continue to be living water, to benefit those around me and be in competition with none, to turn the other cheek, to stand with the persecuted and to love my neighbor.

Speaker A:

That's what it means to celebrate Easter.

Speaker A:

It's not just a day where we spike the football.

Speaker A:

It's a lifestyle.

Speaker A:

So may Easter be with you.

Speaker A:

And again, thank you guys so much for just listening to this dummy ramble on about Easter and the things I don't know anything about and the things that I think I might know something about.

Speaker A:

And celebrating Easter with me.

Speaker A:

I appreciate all of you.

Speaker A:

I hope you guys find some beautiful art and songs to listen to to meditate on today.

Speaker A:

I hope you continue to ask big questions from these theologians, but not to confuse yourself, to sometimes let yourself live in simplicity too.

Speaker A:

And thank you for joining this dummy.

Speaker A:

As I continue to ask these questions.

Speaker A:

I don't have any, any things for you to go to.

Speaker A:

Go on.

Speaker A:

You know, usually after three questions, what do you keep asking?

Speaker A:

I want you to meditate on some art.

Speaker A:

Meditate.

Speaker A:

And some music.

Speaker A:

And to be with those you love today.

Speaker A:

Because God is love.

Speaker A:

Thank you again.

Speaker A:

For joining this dummy as I continue with my search to understand God and theology better.

Speaker A:

And of course, I need to help you all by reminding you, even though we don't want to be confused and live in confusion, that it's okay and we should keep on struggling till next time.

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About the Podcast

Be Living Water
Benefitting all, in conflict with none, and in harmony with Christ
This show seeks to explore spirituality from the lens of a Christian Taoist, Joshua Noel. We hope to explore Christian, Hebrew, and Taoist Scriptures to find peace for ourselves, love for our neighbors, and a message of Salvation for our time. The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, but what does the way of Jesus look like in our times? Just as Lao Tzu describes "the way" as one where we find our truest selves, have harmony with creation, and seek to put others before ourselves - so too is the way we follow Christ. Some episodes may be devotionals, some will be theological explorations, and other episodes may just be ponderings of our time - but it will all be in an effort to benefit all and be in conflict with none, through Christ.
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About your host

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Joshua Noel

I am from Knoxville, TN. Grew up in Florida and Charlotte, NC. I have a Bachelor's Degree in Biblical Studies, am preparing to attend Law School at the University of South Carolina, have co-hosted "The Whole Church Podcast" with my best friend TJ Blackwell for four years, and I have been involved in local ministries for 15 years now. I'm pretty huge into hermeneutics, U.S. Constitutional Law, and Biblical theology, and my favorite TV show is "Doctor Who".

Alons-y!